saab92x.com - Over 10% of all 9-2x owners registered

Saab92x.com is dedicated to the discussion of the Saab 9-2x sport wagon, based on the Subaru WRX.
Please register or login to post.

Welcome to Saab92x.com!
Saab92X.com is the premier Saab92X forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!

#1 2005-06-28 14:56:54

Snaab9-2
Your Arms Off
From: Delaware
Registered: 2005-06-20
User Number: 283
Posts: 4211

Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

Check out this thread from NASIOC:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=671294

There is a lot to it (18 pages), but if you can skim though the shorter posts and read some of the longer ones... it isn't too bad.  It gets really interesting on page 8 or so.

I have not had my 9-2 long enough to know for sure if I have this problem but I believe we have the same ECU programing as the newer WRX's.... so..... read up.

Sorry if this is a repost, but it really gave me an unsettled feeling as I don't believe Subaru (and most likely SAAB) has done anything about it. hmm


05 Red SAAB 9-2 Aero 5 Speed: AP Stage 2 93 - FHI 20mm Rear Sway Bar - Stromung Shorty DP - STI UP - STI Axle Back

Offline

 

Remove Advertisements Advertisement

Saab92X.com

Offline

 

#2 2005-06-28 15:11:54

Avaryc
Enlarged Member
From: Kalifornia, Peoples Republik
Registered: 2005-06-27
User Number: 366
Posts: 1437

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

hmn, good thing I just ordered my ap smile

Offline

 

#3 2005-06-28 15:19:01

Saabaru_92x
Member
From: Southeast Michigan
Registered: 2005-06-02
User Number: 139
Posts: 672
Website

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

I log my UTEC daily, and I'm not sure if its because of its fueling, but as soon as I go above 30% throttle, my AFR goes 'RICH' which is below 12.5.

Best way to check for knock is with Delta Dash.  Its a ECU scanner, and can monitor many parameters in the car.

The UTEC acuatlly flashes the CEL if you get knock.  Watch the video of the 700+whp sti on nasioc, and pay attention to the dash lights, you'll see what it looks like when it knocks.

Jason

Offline

 

#4 2005-06-28 15:56:13

joefrompa
Member
Registered: 2005-06-14
User Number: 214
Posts: 289

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

Great post....I read about 6 pages worth

I'm getting AP after reading that...and I'm not getting a up/downpipe unless I can find a way to keep EGTs down....1600+ degree is ridiculous for a stock car...

I'll also put in some iridium plugs when I can, as I know they do good things to turbo'd cars with heat problems (seems the 9-2x likes to heat up)...

AP, Synth oils, Iridium Plugs, and maybe Purple Ice or Water Wetter to help the coolant stay cooler...these should at least help the engine stay rich

I would think a turboback exhaust system would help the EGTs stay low, but I'm not an expert. Any opinions on this?


9-2x Arctic Silver Aero 5-spd. 20% tint all around. 7000+ miles...20mm Rear Sway Bar sitting in a garage waiting for time to install

Offline

 

#5 2005-06-28 15:56:54

joefrompa
Member
Registered: 2005-06-14
User Number: 214
Posts: 289

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

Great post....I read about 6 pages worth

I'm getting AP after reading that...and I'm not getting a up/downpipe unless I can find a way to keep EGTs down....1600+ degree is ridiculous for a stock car...

I'll also put in some iridium plugs when I can, as I know they do good things to turbo'd cars with heat problems (seems the 9-2x likes to heat up)...

AP, Synth oils, Iridium Plugs, and maybe Purple Ice or Water Wetter to help the coolant stay cooler...these should at least help the engine stay rich

I would think a turboback exhaust system would help the EGTs stay low, but I'm not an expert. Any opinions on this?


9-2x Arctic Silver Aero 5-spd. 20% tint all around. 7000+ miles...20mm Rear Sway Bar sitting in a garage waiting for time to install

Offline

 

#6 2005-06-28 16:27:21

dirtnyureye
Give it some stick!
From: Virginia
Registered: 2005-06-17
User Number: 256
Posts: 135

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

I read through about 3 pages of that thread before it started getting old.  Skipped to Page 18 and it seems this is still a problem.

I'm not sure there's anything you can do about the problem short of buying a tuner... 

Here's a thought, but not sure if it would even work based on this comment regarding the ECU's mapping:

skywalker wrote:

To go a step further did you know that Subaru doesn't even use some of thier maps at all or if they are using them they are very poor values to be using within those maps. A main example is the air temperature vs. boost map. These values do not compensate for high intake temps at all. So if you are in the middle of the desert on a hot summer day there will be no boost pulled out due to high intake temperatures

If you can lower the temperature the air intake temperature sensor sees, you can probably force the ECU into an eternal rich condition (though from comment above, not sure if ECU will work this way- I have no experience with scooby ECU's).  In some cars, you can do this buy applying a resistor to the intake air temp sensor- forcing the intake air temp to a lower degree setting (based on the resistance) and causing the ECU to run rich.  However, the downside is you'll be wasting more gas than you need to even when you're "babying" the pedal.  This trick will also advance timing to some degree (based on the ECU maps/tables) - which may be a very bad side effect in hot weather.  The ultimate solution is to trick the ECU into thinking it should run rich without the side-effect of increased timing.sad

[Edit]:
Well la-di-da - I did some searching and here's what I found.  This thread explicitly talks about the intake air temperature modification (resistor):

http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1602

For those that are lazy, here's an excerpt:

ImpressvRs wrote:

What it does is it loops the ECU signal to the IAT back telling the ECU that the engine is getting colder air than it actually is getting. This causes the ECU to add more fuel creating more power. The results are for lack of a better word "awesome". It acts as if your motor is no longer restricted by the ECU. It is a good and inexpensive way to free up your stored power. BUT, with gas prices being what they are I don't reccomend leaving the mod in all the time.
...
Should have mentioned in my last post that this mod will advance your timing 1 to 2 degrees. It also desreases your fuel economy 1 to 2 MPG. DEFINATELY a good reason to NOT leave this mod attached at all times.

Last edited by dirtnyureye (2005-06-28 16:44:25)


MBM Aero 5s w/ Sport Package

Offline

 

#7 2005-06-28 16:46:23

akaryrye
Enthusiast
Registered: 2005-05-20
User Number: 70
Posts: 466

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

It all makes sense now ... this is ridiculous how subaru released the car like this, or that do not fix the situation.  My accessport should finally arrive today or tomorrow and I am more happy than ever that I am getting it, but for those who dont want to shell out 600 bucks its a shame that this problem exists.


Red 1990 Miata - squirted n' sparked, gt2554 turbo
Black 1997 Miata - basically stock ... needs a bath

Offline

 

#8 2005-06-28 16:51:24

dirtnyureye
Give it some stick!
From: Virginia
Registered: 2005-06-17
User Number: 256
Posts: 135

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

Ok I couldn't help it, but I did more reading on that thread and the following quote explains why for a brief 2 seconds while under WOT, the ECU does not go into open loop (uses fuel tables) and, thus, causing a lean condition:

adg016 wrote:

ALL,

I think this is very important. PLEASE READ WHAT FOLLOWS. We need to shift from symptom (detonation and high temps) and possible cause (lean fueling) to explanation, and then extrapolate out what it will take for a full resolution.

blackwrecks,

First, let me say thank you for joining the discussion. Let me also say thank you for taking the time to read through the link I posted much earlier in this thread. For those of you who don't know, this EPA document is 130 pages long! I read about the first instance where enrichment delay mandates were discussed, but failed to do what blackwrecks has done. He gave it a bit more thorough read, and found the passage which he quoted below, which is VERY important.

He posted, and then many other posts surfaced, and I think his point became lost in the shuffle. His finding, and my subsequent more thorough reading of this document is extremely important and relevant to the discussion at hand.

I shrugged off my initial findings as they pertained to delayed enrichment mandates after buddha_1976 attempted to clarify that US06 had little to do with the conditions under which we were seeing the delay on 2004 and 2005 WRXs. I now am firmly convinced of one of two scenarios:

1. Subaru is running the 2004/2005 WRXs in a way that isn't necessary to meet US06 enrichment delay requirement.
2. US06 did and does directly pertain to the necessity for Subaru to run enrichment delay the way they are presently.

These are both possibilities, but as I read through the 130-page document, it opened my eyes, and the story appeared in Technicolor before me. I'm again providing the link to the full text from the EPA at the bottom of this post, but for those of you brave enough to go through it now, it can be found at EPA US06 Document.

The story goes something like this:

1. US06 emissions cycle gets hatched by the U.S. EPA as a means to combat NOx, CO, and possibly HC emissions.
2. CARB, SEMA, and many OEMs express dissent on the EPA's findings, stating that it will cause a number of problems relating to durability and performance.
3. EPA resists the counter from these organizations and companies, but decides some "higher performance vehicles" will be exempt from enrichment delay.
4. EPA loosely divides up vehicles into three categories: "higher performance vehicles", "most vehicles", and "no vehicle". That's using their own language of course, as taken directly from the text.
5. 2002 and 2003 WRXs in this play get cast as "higher performance vehicles".
6. 2004 comes, and with it comes the introduction of the STi. At this time, for whatever reason, the STi becomes a "higher performance vehicle", while the regular WRX becomes considered "most vehicles". (It's still unclear whether Subaru chose this voluntarily or whether the EPA pushed them in that direction.)
7. "Higher performance vehicles" (STi) will be able to use enrichment "immediately at WOT", while "most vehicles" (WRX) will need to "delay enrichment for no more than two seconds".
8. In our play, the part of "no vehicle" will need to "delay enrichment for more than four seconds." These are lower performance vehicles.
9. The EPAs rationale for allowing "higher performance vehicles" to slide with regard to delayed enrichment during WOT is because the EPA statistically believes that lower-powered cars use (and require) WOT on a more frequent basis to safely merge, pass, get up to cruising speed in a reasonable amount of time, etc. They also believe that these vehicles can more safely run lean due to lower compression ratios, low or no boost, etc.
10. As mentioned before, Subaru either chooses to allow their car to be considered "most vehicles", OR they don't work hard enough with the EPA to show them that a car with a 2.0-liter, high-performance engine ingesting ~1 bar of boost is clearly not "most vehicles".

This story leads us to the discovery of a nasty symptom of delayed enrichment in performance cars (turbocharged cars in particular), detonation and high EGTs. During the course of the counters to the EPA's proposed legislation, comments are made. Some of those are:

...

So where are we at? Well the next question that I believe needs answering, is whether this delayed enrichment was fully voluntary, or whether Subaru was forced into this type of operation. If it's the latter, that still begs the question as to why they didn't fight for an arbitrator to allow either 1. shortened delay period before enrichment, or 2. reclassification of the WRX back to where it once was as a "higher performance vehicle", in which case they would have been allowed immediate enrichment upon WOT. The document contains many parameters or situations under which an OEM can make such requests.

Here's the link again to the full text of the US06 document. I suggest doing a find on "enrichment". Then just read through the relevant sections.

EPA US06 Document

Let the discussion commence yet again!

Very good read and informative.


MBM Aero 5s w/ Sport Package

Offline

 

#9 2005-06-28 16:54:15

Anand
The Dude Abides
Registered: 2005-05-29
User Number: 113
Posts: 2036

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

I'm especially interested in the bit towards the end where it says you can use an '02/'03 ECU in an '04 (and presumably '05) car.  If so, that's pretty sweet.  I've seen '02/'03 ECUs going for less than $200 on the NASIOC's classifieds.  Makes things much easier to keep our original ECUs in pristine condition.


2005 Arctic Silver 9-2x Aero 5-Speed w/ Sport Package

Offline

 

#10 2005-06-28 17:07:56

Snaab9-2
Your Arms Off
From: Delaware
Registered: 2005-06-20
User Number: 283
Posts: 4211

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

I really don't have the moeny to shell out on Cobb or whatever reflash and I really want to keep the car stock at least for a little while.... so could a dealer flash me to a 02 spec WRX ECU?  I mean, I am sure it isn't technically legal but depending on the dealer.... they might do it.


05 Red SAAB 9-2 Aero 5 Speed: AP Stage 2 93 - FHI 20mm Rear Sway Bar - Stromung Shorty DP - STI UP - STI Axle Back

Offline

 

#11 2005-06-28 17:19:03

dirtnyureye
Give it some stick!
From: Virginia
Registered: 2005-06-17
User Number: 256
Posts: 135

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

athakur999 wrote:

I'm especially interested in the bit towards the end where it says you can use an '02/'03 ECU in an '04 (and presumably '05) car.  If so, that's pretty sweet.  I've seen '02/'03 ECUs going for less than $200 on the NASIOC's classifieds.  Makes things much easier to keep our original ECUs in pristine condition.

I saw that too, do you want to try it out smile

Cliffs Notes:

1. Detonation may occur (based on your conditions: gas, outside temp, etc) because the car is running lean for 2 seconds after you go WOT. 

2. Suspected reason why the 2 sec delay is programmed into the ECU is to satisfy an EPA guidline that 25% (or more) of vehicles from a manufacturer must for be compliant with an EPA standard.  It is suspected WRX was chosen because it's the most sold in the Subaru lineup and, thus, it would be a lot easier to meet the requirement.

3. There's nothing you can do about this problem without reprogramming the ECU.  The resistor trick I posted above is a "band-aid" to the problem.  The real solution is to remove the 2 second delay.

[Edit]:

By the way, I've tried the resistor trick in a more advanced fashion (potentiometer) on my old car (non scooby) and it really does work - but like I said, it's really a band-aid to the solution.  The resistor will mess with your fuel consumption and advances or reduces your timing (based on what you set the intake temperature to be (colder = advance, hotter = reduce)).  Increasing timing is a cheap way to get more HP, but be weary because too much timing causes knock and your engine will go *boom* banana

Last edited by dirtnyureye (2005-06-28 17:25:57)


MBM Aero 5s w/ Sport Package

Offline

 

#12 2005-06-28 17:21:40

dirtnyureye
Give it some stick!
From: Virginia
Registered: 2005-06-17
User Number: 256
Posts: 135

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

turbo20vjetta wrote:

I really don't have the moeny to shell out on Cobb or whatever reflash and I really want to keep the car stock at least for a little while.... so could a dealer flash me to a 02 spec WRX ECU?  I mean, I am sure it isn't technically legal but depending on the dealer.... they might do it.

It certainly doesn't hurt to ask- mention that you've read a lot about the Subaru ECU enrichment delay and you're worried about blowing your motor under certain conditions.


MBM Aero 5s w/ Sport Package

Offline

 

#13 2005-06-28 17:44:12

Snaab9-2
Your Arms Off
From: Delaware
Registered: 2005-06-20
User Number: 283
Posts: 4211

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

dirtnyureye wrote:

turbo20vjetta wrote:

I really don't have the moeny to shell out on Cobb or whatever reflash and I really want to keep the car stock at least for a little while.... so could a dealer flash me to a 02 spec WRX ECU?  I mean, I am sure it isn't technically legal but depending on the dealer.... they might do it.

It certainly doesn't hurt to ask- mention that you've read a lot about the Subaru ECU enrichment delay and you're worried about blowing your motor under certain conditions.

Hmm, would SAAB have the program or would I have to go to Subaru?  Is it 100% certain we have the same program as the 05 WRX's?


05 Red SAAB 9-2 Aero 5 Speed: AP Stage 2 93 - FHI 20mm Rear Sway Bar - Stromung Shorty DP - STI UP - STI Axle Back

Offline

 

#14 2005-06-28 18:13:45

dirtnyureye
Give it some stick!
From: Virginia
Registered: 2005-06-17
User Number: 256
Posts: 135

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

From what I've read, we have the '04 WRX ECU but I'm not 100% sure - need someone else here that knows for sure to confirm.

You bring up a valid point about Saab having the ECU code - they probably dont. So you'd have to go to a subaru dealership - and having them flash it will probably cost you just as much as buying an '02 ECU off the internet.

[Edit]:

WRXVT wrote:

FYI according to Trey Cobb, the 9-2x he looked at had a 2005 ECU

site:
http://www.wrxforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimat … 501#000000

There you is - the Saab ECU is an 05 WRX ECU

Last edited by dirtnyureye (2005-06-29 09:03:00)


MBM Aero 5s w/ Sport Package

Offline

 

#15 2005-06-28 18:24:09

Snaab9-2
Your Arms Off
From: Delaware
Registered: 2005-06-20
User Number: 283
Posts: 4211

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

Nothing is easy!  mad

Hmmm, is there such a thing as a Saab/Subaru dealer.....  smile


05 Red SAAB 9-2 Aero 5 Speed: AP Stage 2 93 - FHI 20mm Rear Sway Bar - Stromung Shorty DP - STI UP - STI Axle Back

Offline

 

#16 2005-06-28 19:23:53

LilRedWagon
Pretty Huge Member
Registered: 2005-05-24
User Number: 93
Posts: 73

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

This is really really stupid.  I mean I work for the government but come on.  The EPA knows nothing about building cars and now they are creating ECU problems?  Grrr... hmm


2005 Saab 9-2x Aero 5 speed, Brilliant Red, Cold Weather, Premium, Sport packages

Offline

 

#17 2005-06-28 19:39:24

WRXVT
Saabaru Guru
Registered: 2005-06-20
User Number: 297
Posts: 419

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

has anyone actually experienced detonation on a 9-2x?   Most WRXs don't have that problem, including the 04-05s


2005 Saab 9-2X Aero
5MT, DSM, SP, CWP
2005 Subaru 2.5RS
4Eat, Black

Offline

 

#18 2005-06-28 19:58:35

eurospeed
Will race for food.
Supporter
Registered: 2005-05-13
User Number: 29
Posts: 1099

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

From what I can tell, I haven't experienced detonation, however I have experienced the brief bucking under WOT at about 4-5K.  I assume that is the transition from closed loop to open loop...


EUROSPEED EUROSPEED EUROSPEED
saab 92x AERO ..:::::::.. driving banana

Offline

 

#19 2005-06-28 20:01:59

akaryrye
Enthusiast
Registered: 2005-05-20
User Number: 70
Posts: 466

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

Thank you for this post which started the thread, it is the most relevant and informative post I have read in a long time here.  It explains fully the problems I experienced that caused me to make the "crackling sound under boost" thread as well as some of the lugging and sudden power issues.  I read about 80% of the 18 pages and of that skipped through as much of the bs that I could ... so many retarded flamers on there (so the rumors are true).  I am no expert and am only writing what I read as I understood it, but I will try to summarize as best as I can the situation that is happening:

What is the problem?
Many people who own 2004 and 2005 wrx's are experiencing detonation in varying conditions, from hot to cold and even on 93 octane.  The problem, It seems is that there is a delay in fuel enrichment that causes these cars to run lean while in boost until the fuel enrichment kicks in around 5000 rpm or after about 2 seconds in whatever gear idk which.  Either way, there has been testing done by knowlegable and skilled individuals which show the AF ratio maintaining 14.7 to 1 until the fuel enrichment kicks in as a noticable burst of power.  This means that prior to enrichment, you could be hitting 12 - 13 psi with an AF ratio of 14.7 which is a dangerous situation and robs a lot of power.  If this dosnt make any sense to you, basically it is what causes knocking which can destroy an engine over time or even over a short period.  The ECU has a built in mechanism to combat this however, it does this by pulling back the timing when it senses knock and slowly advancing until it knocks again.  Over time it finds a happy median.  So our car should be safe then right? Wrong.  The timing pull aparantly does not do enough to prevent knocking.  If you drive easy everywhere and very seldom drive hard (i.e only onramps, passing, and uphill) the car should be fine for a long time.  However, If you race your car or drive hard often, your engine could sustain some serious damage.  Further, when the ECU pulls timing, it is robbing the car of power in its efforts to survive on top of all the robbed power from the lean AF mixture.  Another problem caused by this is very high EGT temperatures which I dont want to get into.

Why Is it happening?
At first I was thinking that Subaru was really careless to release this to market two years in a row, until i read on and discovered that it was actually American EPA regualtions that forced certain cars to have a delay before fuel enrichment.   This turned out to be not entirely true as I read even further, but somewhat so.  The EPA in 2004 switched to tier 2 emissions standards which are supposed to be phased in through 2007 (tier 1 began in 1994).  In 2005, 25% of a manufacturers cars had to comply, 50% for 2005, 75% for 2006, and 100% in 2007.  To meet the rigid demands while retaining the performance of the 2.0L turbo wrx engine, Subaru tweaked the tuning a bit and that is what we have today.  The STI by the way is not one of the 50%.  What is most ridiculous is that gas mileage and emmisions are actually worse as one post stated, though it complies with tier 2.

What can be done?
There are a few solutions that can be done, the most easy and effective would be to get the ecu flashed by one of the various methods.  The warranty safe method would be to get a 2002 or 2003 ECU and swap it out, though I am not 100% sure it would work.  A bandaid solution would be to trick the ecu to think it is getting colder air all the time, therefore richening fuel mixture across the board but wasting a lot of gas (1-2 mpg)
The only other option that I can think of would be to not drive your car hard all that often, but I could never do that so I have an AP on the way!

embeerembeerembeer hope this helps and if I am wrong on anything, please correct me so that I can edit this! embeerembeerembeer


Red 1990 Miata - squirted n' sparked, gt2554 turbo
Black 1997 Miata - basically stock ... needs a bath

Offline

 

#20 2005-06-28 20:02:36

akaryrye
Enthusiast
Registered: 2005-05-20
User Number: 70
Posts: 466

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

I have experienced detonation, 3 times audiably and I am kinda pissed off about it


Red 1990 Miata - squirted n' sparked, gt2554 turbo
Black 1997 Miata - basically stock ... needs a bath

Offline

 

#21 2005-06-28 20:22:17

eurospeed
Will race for food.
Supporter
Registered: 2005-05-13
User Number: 29
Posts: 1099

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

akaryrye wrote:

What can be done?
There are a few solutions that can be done, the most easy and effective would be to get the ecu flashed by one of the various methods.  The warranty safe method would be to get a 2002 or 2003 ECU and swap it out, though I am not 100% sure it would work.  A bandaid solution would be to trick the ecu to think it is getting colder air all the time, therefore richening fuel mixture across the board but wasting a lot of gas (1-2 mpg)
The only other option that I can think of would be to not drive your car hard all that often, but I could never do that so I have an AP on the way!

So the solutions as I understand are:

- reflash or swap ECU to 2002/2003 WRX
- ECU/resistor trick (not sure it would work for our ECUs)
- 3rd party EM (AP, etc)
- Drive slower, rarely go WOT with high boost

Thanks for the great summary...hopefully more people will bring their cars in to the shop, forcing Saab/Subaru to come up with a solution (perhaps that Subaru HQ reflash in the NASIOC thread may have been the factory solution).


EUROSPEED EUROSPEED EUROSPEED
saab 92x AERO ..:::::::.. driving banana

Offline

 

#22 2005-06-28 20:25:59

scottgf
Former, Ex Dealer Guy
Supporter
From: Rosemead Cal.
Registered: 2005-05-11
User Number: 13
Posts: 5140
Website

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

So the AP will solve this "problem"??


Scott
05 9-2x Aero 5 Spd AP Stage 2 SOLD 10/2012     94 Dodge Viper RT/10
73 Plymouth Road Runner                                  63 VW
69 Ford Cortina GT                                            12 Chevy Volt

Offline

 

#23 2005-06-28 20:30:12

PCPCDALLAS
Beloved Sponsor
Supporter
Registered: 2005-05-14
User Number: 39
Posts: 759

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

scottgf wrote:

So the AP will solve this "problem"??

I've never heard of this "problem."  neutral


Park Cities Performance Center
www.pcpcdallas.com
214-420-4425

Offline

 

#24 2005-06-28 21:07:26

torifile
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
User Number: 236
Posts: 115

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

English, please? I'm seriously lost about even what "detonation" IS much less why I should worry about it. I read the posts here that summarized the problem but I'm still not sure what the issue really is.

Offline

 

#25 2005-06-28 21:17:30

heathbar
Go Gators
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: 2005-06-19
User Number: 275
Posts: 2566

Re: Detonation *Everyone Read* - Discus

scottgf wrote:

So the AP will solve this "problem"??

will it???  if so...

more hp + safer WOT = me buying an AP


Zipcar Aficionado

2005 Black Aero SOLD

Offline

 

Board footer

Site problems, bugs, or questions? Contact Administrator
All content copyright Saab92x.com 2005-2010
SAAB and the SAAB logos are trademarks of Saab Cars USA, Inc.