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#1 2005-11-04 19:33:51

aca2983
Member
Registered: 2005-06-12
User Number: 202
Posts: 315

Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

This is a long post to describe my roof rail installation and sound deadening that I did a couple weeks ago.  Sorry but I didn’t get pics during the installation, but it’s pretty straightforward.  It’s long, but more info is better, and I hope somebody finds it useful.

RAAMAT INSTALLATION
I like quiet, so I decided that I wanted to add sound deadening to the roof while I had it all apart. I plan to do the spare tire area next, then the doors when I upgrade the speakers. Really, your priority should probably be trunk, doors, roof optional, but I’m doing things when I have the time, so I’m sorta going in the reverse preferred order.

I used one layer of Raammat and one layer on the Ensolite foam. The Raammat is easy to cut and handle. I found that the easiest way is to just use scissors, and wipe them down periodically with WD-40 to keep them from getting gunky.  The Ensolite is a bit more of a pain to handle because you have to deal with the spray adhesive.

Rick from Raammat sent detailed instructions with my order. I put one layer on the outer roof shell, between the structural support members. I then added a patch of a 2nd layer just in the middle of the unsupported sections. Ricks instructions were to put Ensolite over everything, but I just cut individual pieces on put them on the outer roof shell, between the roof “beams . The Ensolite seems to have more benefit than I expected it would.  Just by tapping on the roof before and after, you can notice a difference in the sound the metal makes: before Raammat, after Raammat, and after Raammat + Ensolite. It goes from a “ping  to more of a dull “thud .

RAIL INSTALLATION
The roof rail installation process has been discussed on this & other forums already, so I don’t have a lot to add about that.  My main source of information was http://www.egansworld.com/oldsite/RoofRails.html and there are also plenty of posts on saab92x, nasioc, and saabcentral.  I got my rails from a local WRX’er. In the website above, ignore the part about drilling and the rubber plugs. Not needed if you are swapping. It’s really not that hard, it just takes time. Plan on 2 or 3 hrs, not counting sound deadening.

NOISE SOURCES
I left the headliner out for a week, because I wanted to make sure there were no leaks around the rail bolts.  During this time with the headliner out, you can really pay attention to where the noise is coming from. Get somebody to drive you around while you crawl around the car and listen. 

IMO, a lot of noise seems to come from the A-pillars and the area around where the A-pillars and the roof and windshield meet. It seems like the road noise travels up from the floor and exits up around the roof.  I have a moonroof, and the areas between the front of the moonroof and the windshield are tight to work with.  LOTS of noise in that area though, so do *something*. I cut the Raammat into 1 and 2 inch strips, and did the best I could. I took Ricks advice and covered up as many of the holes in the A-pillars and the front part of the roof as I could. 
The nice thing about Raammat is there’s no reason to waste a single inch of it. If you’ve got little scraps, just stick them somewhere, or use them to double-up certain places.  Just start tapping on metal and follow your ears and instincts.  This area is too tight to install the Ensolite, so I put a layer of Ensolite on the inside of the headliner instead.

Another step that I did VERY cautiously. I shot a few squirts of Great Stuff Window & Door expanding foam into a few places in the “A  pillars and roof structure area in the front. I did not “fill  the pillars up! I only used small amounts, figuring it would help to dissipate the noise traveling through the hollow structure. After a lot of internet research, the horror stories about body panels being warped seems to be from over-use of the triple-expanding type of foam. Problems seem to be from people using it on trunks and areas around large expanses of sheet metal. I didn’t do that. Use at your own risk though, because the stuff is a mess if you get it on something.

The “C  and “D  pillars are probably even more noisy than the “A s. Follow directions for A pillars. Cover the holes, Ensolite if you have the time and patience (I didn’t), and a few shots of foam if you are daring.  I put some Raammat on the C & D pillars, and the roof beam near where the hatch connects to the roof.

The headliner and all the interior parts went back together fairly easily. The trickiest part is the B-pillar covers. Also, DON’T overtighten the bolts which attach the assist-handles. I broke off a bolt head, and had to drill-out the shaft of the bolt. A time-consuming PITA.

RESULTS OF ROOF DEADENING
There is a noticeable, but not dramatic, difference, especially at highway cruising speeds.  I now notice wind noise where I didn’t notice it before. There also seems to be less noise coming from the rear of the car. The biggest source of noise is still the doors, and now it’s more noticeable.  The biggest improvement—driving in the rain. Before it was like marbles hitting a tin can, now it is much much quieter.

It’s a worthwhile project if you are already planning on taking the roof apart. If you don’t want to do roof, I’d follow every other sources advice and do the doors and trunk. I’m doing my trunk over Thanksgiving, but probably won’t get to the doors until springtime when I plan on upgrading my speakers.

ROOF RACK RESULTS
I don’t think anybody has posted pics of a red  92x with rails, so here are mine  smile I already have Saris bike and ski attachments (not common, but IMO superior to Thule & Yakima). I’m going to get Saris “Talon  load bars which attach to factory roof racks. This way, everything is totally lockable, nothing will touch the paint or interfere with doors & windows, and the Saris system can be totally removed in less than 5 minutes.

Over and out.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1mgfr/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/cropped_92x1.jpg.w560h225.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1mgfr/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/cropped_92x.jpg.w560h431.jpg


FORMER OWNER Linear, AT, Red, Cold, Mnrf, Cloth, bone-stock but upgraded with 6-CD, OEM sub, compass mirror, cuphldr, arm ext., WRX roof rails, roof and pillar sound deadening.

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#2 2005-11-06 15:29:26

D-rock
Stage 2
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From: San Carlos
Registered: 2005-07-19
User Number: 570
Posts: 623

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

aca2983 - Great writeup!  I was thinking about doing the sound deadening material on the headliner but definitely not as intricate as you have described.  (was just thinking about some dynamat on large sheetmetal surfaces)  I'll probably just pass since I don't feel like taking out the headliner again. Trunk and doors?  Maybe...

-D


Silver Aero, 5spd, cold package

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#3 2005-11-06 15:40:13

aca2983
Member
Registered: 2005-06-12
User Number: 202
Posts: 315

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

If you don't have a sunroof, it would probably be a lot easier because you have fewer nooks and crevices to work around. 

Can't wait to find out the results of doing my trunk and doors. Finding the time actually DO it is going to be the tricky part.


FORMER OWNER Linear, AT, Red, Cold, Mnrf, Cloth, bone-stock but upgraded with 6-CD, OEM sub, compass mirror, cuphldr, arm ext., WRX roof rails, roof and pillar sound deadening.

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#4 2005-11-06 15:54:32

Timmahhh
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Registered: 2005-06-26
User Number: 361
Posts: 1648

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

I just ordered 50' of "fatmat" from ebay.  It was $54.95 shipped I believe.  I'll post results after I put some in (or post to find out how to put my car back together)

I was thinking of hitting the fender areas to cut down on the noise of driving through rain.  I also wanted to put some around the suspension points on the sheet metal to keep the noise from bumps down.  The doors make a lot of noise when I close them (for a new car anyway) so I want to get some in there since I would imagine they would make at least a little noise from driving movement too.

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#5 2005-11-06 16:07:03

aca2983
Member
Registered: 2005-06-12
User Number: 202
Posts: 315

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

Nasioc has a lot of sound deadening threads. Just do a search on "sound deadening". This is one of the more recent ones:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=712026


FORMER OWNER Linear, AT, Red, Cold, Mnrf, Cloth, bone-stock but upgraded with 6-CD, OEM sub, compass mirror, cuphldr, arm ext., WRX roof rails, roof and pillar sound deadening.

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#6 2005-11-06 17:11:53

Timmahhh
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Registered: 2005-06-26
User Number: 361
Posts: 1648

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

They get a little crazy with this stuff  yikes

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#7 2006-10-08 23:01:22

lizzardo
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Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

My weekend project was originally going to be roof rails, but I thought that while I had the headliner down, I'd do something about the roof itself.  I got a bulk pack of Dynamat, rather tham Raamat, mostly because I could get it locally and I hadn't planned ahead.  I didn't look online too much, but saw that Crutchfield had it for $30 more than I paid.  Even with their free shipping and my local sales tax, it was cheaper.  Go figure.

Anyway, my first surprise was the headliner itself.  I hadn't expected it to already have some sound deadening pillows attached.  They're probably only marginally effective, but I'm sure they're better than nothing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/lizzardo/9-2X/headliner.jpg

I dropped the headliner Friday just before dark and made some measurements.  I went inside and parked in front of the tube and made up a set of pre-cut pieces.  I cut the strips in half so they'd be a little easier to work with.  Since the roof is wider than the sheets, I know I'd be filling in with some extra pieces anyway.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/lizzardo/9-2X/pre_cut_pieces.jpg

With no sunroof or moonroof, it was pretty straightforward.  Before:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/lizzardo/9-2X/roof_before.jpg

And after:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/lizzardo/9-2X/roof_after.jpg

It took three sheets of the nine in the package to do the roof.

The finished project:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/lizzardo/9-2X/WRX_rails.jpg

Of course, it would have been too easy to quit there.  I used another 4 1/2 sheets on the doors and cargo area.  I did the inside of the door skins to try to reduce the tinny sound when they close.  I also did the area immediately behind the speakers, to give them a more solid mount.  I didn't do the door inside other than that.  I wanted to keep the service access to the interior and I kept the plastic moisture barrier.

I did a bit inside the hatch, but again, not fanatically.  Just the major flat surfaces. 

Oh, and the spare tire well.  It seems that the spare tire well is like a steel drum.  I did the bottom and most of the sides, again, just trying to damp the resonance of the flat surfaces.  I think more could be done here, but I probably won't bother.  If I had a louder muffler, I'd spend more time there.

The car is noticeably quieter.  My initial impression is that it's like the difference between the Impreza and the 9-2X, taken another step.  The speakers deliver a fuller sound too.  I still have the stock HU and speakers, with tweeters added up front. 

Was all this worth the better part of a beautiful weekend?  There are a million things that would have been more fun, but winter's coming.  I'm sure the roof will be a big improvement in the heavy rain, since before it sounded like I was in garbage can being pelted with gravel.  Tapping on the roof with a fingernail gives a markedly different sound now.

Last edited by lizzardo (2006-10-08 23:03:42)


A Real Saab and a LeMONS Saab - 1978 99 Turbo and 1979 900 Turbo
A non-SAAB - MV F4 312R - Once, the most mental bike ever made
Jaguar F-Type V6s w/6MT - commuter | 1991 Miata w/Hard top - toy
2005 9-2X Linear --> sold | Volvo C30 R-Design 6MT --> sold

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#8 2006-10-08 23:22:33

Whateverland
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Registered: 2005-05-27
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Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

Excellent work lizzardo!  up


'05 Aero Red / Protuned VF34 @ 285whp/280wtq 93oct (Sold 2014)

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#9 2006-10-09 00:57:55

Tkon
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From: Vaughan, ON
Registered: 2005-08-02
User Number: 647
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Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

Whateverland wrote:

Excellent work lizzardo!  up

I agree, great work indeed. I'm planning on installing RAAMmat and Ensolite foam in the roof, and rear cargo area next spring. If I get carried away with the stuff, I'll do the doors too.  roxor


2005 SAAB 9-2x Aero, Arctic Silver Metallic, 5 MT - sold March 2017 - replaced with 2017 Subaru Impreza Wagon

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#10 2006-10-09 01:24:01

lizzardo
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Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

Thanks.  Glad you found the write-up worthwhile.


A Real Saab and a LeMONS Saab - 1978 99 Turbo and 1979 900 Turbo
A non-SAAB - MV F4 312R - Once, the most mental bike ever made
Jaguar F-Type V6s w/6MT - commuter | 1991 Miata w/Hard top - toy
2005 9-2X Linear --> sold | Volvo C30 R-Design 6MT --> sold

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#11 2006-10-09 01:34:12

lizzardo
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Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

Tkon wrote:

Whateverland wrote:

Excellent work lizzardo!  up

I agree, great work indeed. I'm planning on installing RAAMmat and Ensolite foam in the roof, and rear cargo area next spring. If I get carried away with the stuff, I'll do the doors too.  roxor

I think doing the roof is probably the biggest gain, followed by the doors.  I suspect the cargo area would give the least return on investment, but is going to be easier than doing the doors.


A Real Saab and a LeMONS Saab - 1978 99 Turbo and 1979 900 Turbo
A non-SAAB - MV F4 312R - Once, the most mental bike ever made
Jaguar F-Type V6s w/6MT - commuter | 1991 Miata w/Hard top - toy
2005 9-2X Linear --> sold | Volvo C30 R-Design 6MT --> sold

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#12 2006-10-09 09:25:30

Alan l.
Keeping it clean
From: New York
Registered: 2005-06-28
User Number: 378
Posts: 1789

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

Excellent write up.  I too went with the Raamat and ensolite stuff on all four doors and it made a huge difference.   Even my gf that normally doesn't notice anything different about the car said the car seems quieter.

Tapping on the doors now feels alot less tingy like a cheap econo box.  Feels solid.  The only downside is that the doors are alittle heavier now so if someone closed the door harder than usual, its going to really slam.  banghead

I'll eventually do the roof when i have a reason to take it down again (suede roof) because i already did my rails.

Alan

Last edited by Alan l. (2006-10-09 09:29:49)

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#13 2006-10-09 09:42:32

MattL
2011 Tacoma Double Cab TRD Sport
From: PA
Registered: 2005-06-17
User Number: 253
Posts: 3531
Website

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

Great thread. I have never done sound deadening on a car before. Why use both the Raamat and Ensolite? Obviously the Raamat is the main "insulator". So what is the purpose of the Ensolite?


Sold: 2005 Arctic Silver Aero, Prem., Cold, 5 MT owned since new.

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#14 2006-10-09 10:26:51

lizzardo
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Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

I'm assuming that the RAAMmat is like the Dynamat I used.  It doesn't really block sound.  What it does is damp the vibrations of the sheet metal.  Imagine a tuning fork.  Now imagine wrapping some rubber bands tightly around each tine.  The rubber bands wouldn't block any appreciable amount of sound, but they _would_ damp the vibrations and change the resonant frequency.  That's what the Dynamat does.  Instead of a tinny, high-frequency sound, you get a lower frequency "thud." 

That's also why it's not critical to cover the entire sheet metal surface.  Back to the musical instrument analogies, you don't need to touch an entire guitar string to quiet it down.

Ensolite is a closed cell foam that does insulate against noise. 

I think the extra weight per door is marginal.  My back-of-envelope calculation is 5.4 pounds added to the roof and 8.1 pounds added everywhere else.  If I assume the cargo area got as much as a door and that all doors are equivalent, that's about 1.6 pounds per door.


A Real Saab and a LeMONS Saab - 1978 99 Turbo and 1979 900 Turbo
A non-SAAB - MV F4 312R - Once, the most mental bike ever made
Jaguar F-Type V6s w/6MT - commuter | 1991 Miata w/Hard top - toy
2005 9-2X Linear --> sold | Volvo C30 R-Design 6MT --> sold

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#15 2006-12-13 17:43:17

pstauff
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User Number: 1451
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Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

I bought Subaru WRX rails last week.  It even included crossbars.  It does not have nuts though.  Do I reuse the nuts from my current rails?

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#16 2006-12-13 17:51:34

Avaryc
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From: Kalifornia, Peoples Republik
Registered: 2005-06-27
User Number: 366
Posts: 1437

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

lizzardo wrote:

I'm assuming that the RAAMmat is like the Dynamat I used.  It doesn't really block sound.  What it does is damp the vibrations of the sheet metal.  Imagine a tuning fork.  Now imagine wrapping some rubber bands tightly around each tine.  The rubber bands wouldn't block any appreciable amount of sound, but they _would_ damp the vibrations and change the resonant frequency.  That's what the Dynamat does.  Instead of a tinny, high-frequency sound, you get a lower frequency "thud." 

That's also why it's not critical to cover the entire sheet metal surface.  Back to the musical instrument analogies, you don't need to touch an entire guitar string to quiet it down.

Ensolite is a closed cell foam that does insulate against noise. 

I think the extra weight per door is marginal.  My back-of-envelope calculation is 5.4 pounds added to the roof and 8.1 pounds added everywhere else.  If I assume the cargo area got as much as a door and that all doors are equivalent, that's about 1.6 pounds per door.

It's very refreshing to find people who know the difference between a damper and a noise barrier. Great explanation.  up

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#17 2006-12-14 02:06:38

lizzardo
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From: SF Bay Area, CA.
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User Number: 158
Posts: 4541

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

pstauff wrote:

I bought Subaru WRX rails last week.  It even included crossbars.  It does not have nuts though.  Do I reuse the nuts from my current rails?

Once the moulding is out of the way, you'll see brackets that go in the holes the rails will go into.  Use teh nuts from those brackets for the rails.  No prob'.


A Real Saab and a LeMONS Saab - 1978 99 Turbo and 1979 900 Turbo
A non-SAAB - MV F4 312R - Once, the most mental bike ever made
Jaguar F-Type V6s w/6MT - commuter | 1991 Miata w/Hard top - toy
2005 9-2X Linear --> sold | Volvo C30 R-Design 6MT --> sold

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#18 2006-12-14 02:14:03

lizzardo
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From: SF Bay Area, CA.
Registered: 2005-06-04
User Number: 158
Posts: 4541

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

Avaryc wrote:

It's very refreshing to find people who know the difference between a damper and a noise barrier. Great explanation.  up

Thanks.  I try to provide the best information I can, and find such analogies can give a more concrete understanding.  Too many people have been misinformed for too long, and it only leads to problems.  More and better knowledge leads to better decisions.

To update, I've now driven in reasonably heavy rain, and the loudest noise comes from rain hitting the windshield, not the roof.  Mission accomplished.


A Real Saab and a LeMONS Saab - 1978 99 Turbo and 1979 900 Turbo
A non-SAAB - MV F4 312R - Once, the most mental bike ever made
Jaguar F-Type V6s w/6MT - commuter | 1991 Miata w/Hard top - toy
2005 9-2X Linear --> sold | Volvo C30 R-Design 6MT --> sold

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#19 2006-12-14 13:29:23

06SilverBullet
Member
Registered: 2006-08-09
User Number: 1254
Posts: 78

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

That was a very informational explanation either way...I have a WRX wagon and have found this to be very helpful...

Mark smile

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#20 2010-06-24 14:11:35

vomfass
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From: Baltimore, MD
Registered: 2009-12-04
User Number: 4127
Posts: 91

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

Sorry for the super bump on an old post, but I am going to attempt this upgrade when I take apart the roof to slap on rails.  Does anyone know how much of each of the RAAMat and the ensolite foam I will need to completely coat all of the roof spaces? In either sq footage figure or packs?  Raamaudio is selling packs with 24 sheets / 37.5 sq ft total.  They also have stick-on ensolite foam now, for sale by running yard, 14 sq ft per yard.

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#21 2010-06-24 14:56:10

iamchris
Former Site Owner
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Registered: 2006-02-22
User Number: 1032
Posts: 25079

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

Sorry, I do not know off the top of my head, but don't you have measuring tape?

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#22 2010-06-24 14:58:40

tekkheadd
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Registered: 2008-04-15
User Number: 2702
Posts: 7086

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

iamchris wrote:

Sorry, I do not know off the top of my head, but don't you have measuring tape?

I do, its 3.14.


2005 Saab 9-2x Aero 5MT (world rally satin gray), PnP turbo, Factory Gauges, F1 Racing flywheel, 3'' Catless DP, DOM Tuned Stage II, Hella Micro DE fogs, Ixiz, Koyo Rad, Impreza trunk tray FTW!!
Stocker 16''s  Nokian Nordman2
BBS RK's BFGoodrich g-Force Sport COMP-2

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#23 2010-06-24 15:10:08

Scargo
Freely Inhabiting the Space I'm In
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From: Hancock, NY
Registered: 2005-06-15
User Number: 227
Posts: 14179

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

I got about a maybe 8 sq ft (maybe 12, can't recall, it's been so long) RAAMat remnant with a matching amount of ensolite foam, and spray adhesive for the foam for about $30 from RAAM.  I did the roof, spare wheel well, all four door bottoms and speaker mounting surfaces (did NOT use foam there, just wanted to dampen vibrations), and I probably have a couple of square feet left over.  I did not use a whole lot (since I didn't really want to add too much weight to the car, just wanted to damp out the tinnyness and be able to enjoy the sound system, I wasn't trying to make it a Lexus) so YMMV.


1995.5 Audi //S6, Black/Ecru; MRC Stage 2, Eibach/Bilstein, RS2 BBK, HID's, Eurotails
2005 Saab 9-2X Aero Satin Grey; Cobb STX tune/Cobb 25 mm FSB, 22mm solid adj RSB/H6 upgrade/Noltec Camber Plates/STI Pinks, Koni Inserts/Whiteline Rear Stress Bar/Izixhood/Stromung DP, Crucial HF Kitty, STi catback, Hella MicroDE fogs, color keyed/polished roof rails.

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#24 2010-06-24 15:21:18

Mrmulletmania
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From: Orange, CA
Registered: 2009-11-18
User Number: 4095
Posts: 2240

Re: Roof Rail & Sound Deadening Installation

I like noise hmm


05 Aero MT|Arctic Silver|IxizHood|IxizSS V2|Cobb DP|PDE|Prodrive Oval|EPIC RSB|Cobb FSB|MOMO|Jazzy|GrimmSpeed|IxizSpedal|
"I think I accidentally defeated Bill Gates." -Someguy

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